The Provocateurs Episode 21 | Amy Chang: Becoming an AI Entrepreneur
Amy Changโs career shift reads less like a romance with startups than a reaction against the limits of scale: once Google Analytics had matured to dominance, the work became too predictable to stay energizing. Her crucial insight was not abstract ambition but a concrete operational gap encountered while trying to sell enterprise software. The problem was simple and repeatable: sales teams walked into meetings underprepared, missing the contextual intelligence that could have changed the conversation and improved targeting.
That pain point mattered because it pointed to a product concept grounded in workflow, not novelty. Chang and her co-founder tested the idea through 50 informal customer interviews, and every respondent recognized the problem and said they would pay to solve it. Her account also shows why the transition from a platform giant to a startup is structurally hard: the loss of built-in distribution, recruiting machinery, and brand gravity forces founders to do everything manually, from storytelling to cleanup.
The main limitation is that the same resource poverty that sharpens a startupโs focus also makes execution unforgiving; without scale, even small missteps are visible and expensive. Changโs leadership response was to formalize culture early, hire carefully, and tolerate risk only when she could shield the team from failureโs cost. The larger significance is practical, not promotional: durable ventures emerge when a founder converts a firsthand operational embarrassment into a specific, validated workflow problem and then builds around disciplined execution.
Podcast Transcript
Des Dearlove:
Hello, Iโm Des Dearlove the co-founder of Thinkers50, and Iโd like to welcome you to Provocateurs, the podcast where we explore the experiences, insights, and perspectives of inspiring leaders. Our aim with this series is to provoke you to think and act differently through conversations with insightful leaders who offer new perspectives on traditional business thinking. This is a collaboration between Thinkers50 and Deloitte. And my co-host today is Steve Goldbach. Steve leads Deloitteโs sustainability practice in the US. Prior to his current role, Steve served as Deloitteโs US Chief Strategy Officer for eight years. Heโs also the co-author, along with Geoff Tuff, of two books, Detonate: Why and How Corporations Must Blow Up Best Practices (and Bring a Beginnerโs Mind), and most recently, Provoke: How Leaders Shape the Future by Overcoming Fatal Human Flaws. Steve, great to see you as ever.
Steve Goldbach: Great to see you, Des. And I am so excited for our guest today who is my dear friend, Amy Chang. I am honored to call her a friend, in addition to a great colleague. Amy serves on the board of directors for the Walt Disney Company and Procter & Gamble, and she served on many other boards including Cisco, Splunk, Marqeta and Informatica to name a few. I met Amy when she was running Accompany, which was an artificial intelligence, machine learning-based relationship intelligence platform serving Fortune 500 companies and serving Deloitte, which is how I met her. Accompany was acquired by Cisco for $270 million, and post acquisition, Amy was leading Ciscoโs multi-billion dollar, 6,000 person collaboration business. So Amy brings tons of different kinds of leadership experience, whether itโs in the boardroom or leading a startup or leading a scaled practice in a Fortune 500 company. Sheโs also spent time previously at Google where she led Google Analytics, she was at eBay, and she was at McKinsey, and she is an engineer by training and started her career in hardware with Intel, AMD, and Motorola. So this is super cool, Amy. Iโm so excited to speak to you. Just for transparency, I got a chance to work directly with Amy while she was at Accompany and I found her to be one of the most amazing leaders. I think she is at the apex of nice people and brilliant people, and so there might be people who might be more brilliant than Amy, but theyโre not as nice as Amy. And there might be people who are nicer than Amy, but theyโre not more brilliant than Amy. So she is at this wonderful apex. Amy, why donโt you just start byโฆ Tell us a little bit about your backstory. Were you always an entrepreneur in waiting? What led you to start Accompany?
Amy Chang: And Steve, thank you for the lovely introduction. I donโt know that Iโd called myself an entrepreneur in waiting because I didnโt knowโฆ I was so scared to leave Google and the womb of Google, the soft comfy cocoon of Google and to go start something. And it was actually one of the scariest things I ever did in my career, and I didnโt know if I could do it. So I would love to have characterized myself as an entrepreneur in waiting, but it didnโt even occur to me until we reached right around 86% market share with Google Analytics, and Iโd started with the team when it was less than 1% market share. We bought this tiny company and then from its foundations we made Google Analytics. And we were a new entrant into the market and we werenโt anybody yet in that analytics market, and then it started to build and build and we doubled every six months and it was an entire almost eight year journey. And at the end of it, I was kind of like, well, whatโs the difference between 92% and 86% market share? Basically nothing, right? And if you know what next month, next quarter, next year is going to look like, I personally cannot live that way. That to me is anathema and I just canโt function that way. That much predictability kind of makes me want to poke my eye out. So I decided, okay, I got to do something different. And at first it was, well, what different kind of things are there at Google because letโs stay in Google. But then it became very clear to me that the massive distribution engine that is Google means anything you launch, even if itโs not fantastic, will have a few million people try it out. You havenโt earned the right to have those few million people try it out, you just kind of have this giant engine. And I just wondered, well, what would it be like to do it outside of Google without that bolstering and have to be on your own in the marketplace, putting your idea out there your way, and thatโs the genesis.
Des Dearlove: So what actually provoked you then to leave the cocoon? Which came first, the urge to do something different or the idea for the business?
Amy Chang: I love that question, Des. The urge to do something different was sitting there for the entire last year of my tenure there because afterโฆ We suddenly hit this 86% mark, and it was kind of a wake-up call because we hadnโt done the market share look in six months, and it had hit a certain inflection point and it was just climbing a hockey stick. And I donโt know, we had a launch, a big mobile analytics launch, and I expected to feel the high from it, and I expected that to last for, I donโt know, at least a few days, a week maybe, and to be so excited about it. And right after all the launch flurry of activity died down, it didnโt feel right. I felt let down. I felt like there was something missing. I felt like, โThatโs it?โ Do you know what I mean? And it was this wake up call and I kind of went, โOh, thereโs something wrong here if thatโs how I feel about it,โ because the team worked so hard on this, and itโs kind of a big deal in the industry. And yet my reaction to it is a little bit, โMeh,โ thereโs something wrong with how Iโm currently spending my time, was the wake-up call. And my boss at the time was Susan Wojcicki, whoโs fantastic, and she encouraged meโฆ So I will say I struggled with whether or not to even tell her I was having these feelings for months. And I think the 20th time I woke my poor spouse up, who at 2:00 AM was slumbering nicely next to me โ and Steve knows Ryan well, heโs the calmest, coolest human โ but the 20th time you wake him up at 2:00 AM, heโs going to be a little cranky. So I kind of woke him up and I was like, โRyan, Ryan, do you really think I can leave Google? Do you think itโs crazy?โ Because I have a wonderful first generation immigrant Chinese mother who would articulate every fear I had about leaving out loud. Sheโd be, โWhoโs going to fund you? Whoโs going to follow you? Do you even know how to sell things? Youโve never sold anything. I donโt think anybodyโs going to come with you to do this. I think youโre crazy to want to leave Google.โ So every one of my deepest, darkest fears, she would articulate out loud to me on an almost daily basis. So poor Ryan is woken up for the 20th time and he finally says, โI think youโve already made your decision. And whatโs happening now is youโre a little bit afraid, but itโs okay. Weโre not going to starve. Weโve got a roof over our heads. Just go in, let Susan know and itโll be fine.โ So that morning I typed up my resignation letter and I gave it to her. And she didnโt accept it. She said, โWell, okay, can you take a sabbatical? Can you look at other things inside of the company,โ et cetera. And she was kind enough to provide me with that chance. And as I was looking those thoughts around, โWell, what would it be like to test all of this against the open market,โ it started to become more prevalent. Steve Goldbach: What then led you to discover the thing that led to the idea of Accompany? One of the things we love to talk about is what was your insight? What was your insight about your customer that said, โIโve got something thatโs better than what the market currently has.โ
Amy Chang: It was pain. So Google Analytics had hit the point where we needed to do some enterprise account selling and the way Google worksโฆ So we went into product review with Larry [Page, ed.] and Sergey [Brin, ed.] and I outlined this entire enterprise plan where weโd have customer care people, weโd have enterprise salesโฆ The whole normal machinery of selling to a big company like an Intel. And Sergeyโs point was, โOkay, but I want to know that thereโs actually a market here for an enterprise version of this. So why donโt you go sell the first 10 yourself and then come back to us. And once youโve sold the first 10, then weโll consider putting some sales resources on it.โ Because at the time, you have to remember each Google salesperson on average pulled in six million dollars a head. So thatโs a high bar to compete with as any new product, because on the ad sales side, they were so efficient. So I went, โOkay, no problem. I literally serve 86% of the web. I think I can find 10 enterprise customers. Itโs not going to be that hard.โ So me and my arrogance went away and said, โOkay, Iโll be back in a few months.โ Or actually, I said, โIโll be back in a quarter.โ So long story short, enterprise selling is harder than I thought. And I was in the room and it was a Monday and this big piece of news had come out about this particular potential client that we were in the room with, and there were 19 of them in the room. So I didnโt even know everybodyโs name and I didnโt have profiles or anything on them because at this time Iโm running all of Google Analytics, but Iโm also trying to sell myself, and itโs not as if we know what weโre doing right, on the side. So I wasnโt pre-prepped enough, and theyโd had a layoff that Friday that I didnโt read about and that I didnโt know about, and it was a substantial restructuring for this potential client. And I opened my mouth and I put my foot in it, I put my entire leg in it, and it was terrible. And when somebody from the client pointed out that they just had a restructuring on Friday, I kind of wished the earth would open up and swallow me. When you get so embarrassed, you feel the blood creep from your neck all the way up to your hairline and you could just feel your face really hot, thatโsโฆ And that was the fourth time that had happened in this whole enterprise sales process. Because when you walk into that room, you better know everything thatโs going on with that potential client. You better know everybody at the table. And itโs your responsibility as the lead salesperson to know all of that. And I was so frustrated, and I left that meeting and Iโm sitting there thinking, my calendar is my calendar. The names and the company for sure are in my calendar, why is there not some kind of machine learning system?โ Because we hadnโt had generative AI come out at that point. why isnโt there some algorithm or ML system that can surface everything thatโs relevant for me to know directly to me? Why can it not just be served up to me right before the meeting or the night before the meeting? Everything exists and itโs already there to do this, and yet nobodyโs done this, why? And wouldnโt every single salesperson on earth benefit from knowing who theyโre walking into the room with to try to sell, for that matter, every marketing person whoโs trying to do any kind of real targeting. So I just was very frustrated, and the experience stuck with me. And so then I started to do a little bit of homework and research in terms of customer interviews with people. And I think my co-founder and I at the time, and heโs my dearest friend from Google, heโs our technical co-founder. So he and I sat together and did 50 customer interviews, just kind of informal. And every single person had this experience before and every single person thought this was a problem that they would pay to fix, and that was the genesis of the idea.
Des Dearlove: So what fascinates me too is to go from a big scale organisation like Google and some of the other organisations youโve worked for to a startup, itโs so different. I mean, how did you find that transition, that journey? Because the resources just donโt exist, theyโre not there, you have to make it up as you go along.
Amy Chang: I have to say it was a huge adjustment at first, losing the massive distribution engine and just having that stripped from you, as a product person, all of a sudden you put something out and itโs crickets. Nobody cares, nobody cares. And you have to build up the entire brand. You have to build up the story. You have to communicate it. It was such fantastic new learning, and really a kind of very dense unlearning, and the unlearning is more painful. The learning is fun, the unlearning is a little painful. And a lot of the unlearning was learning to live without resources. So, I mean, at Google, they have an entire recruiting engine. So letโs say you have these open heads in design, or whatever, theyโre sending you candidates. And yes, you still have to interview the candidates, but you donโt source them, you donโt have to reference check them, you donโt have to do any of the legwork before theyโre served up to you on a silver platter for your consideration. Thereโs all this machinery in the background. And you want to talk about that. I mean, depending on Google infrastructure, to do everything you needed to do is a beautiful thing. And all of a sudden youโre out and youโre learning AWS, at the time, because Google Cloud wasnโt a force then. So youโre learning AWS and then youโre finding out, โOh, it doesnโt do this. Oh, it doesnโt do that. Oh, it doesnโt do this other thing. Damn it, we have to do that?โ And so a lot of that was painful at first. Des, I remember this time, I was at the board meeting, and they treat you very nicely there. They take very good care of you. And then I got off the plane, Iโm still in my suit, I still had my suitcase with me, but I was dressed in my suit and I came in through the door, and it was probably 9:00 PM that night. And we used to work till almost midnight most nights on weeknights. And the office was still buzzing and hard at work, because a lot of our engineers might not get in till 10 or 11:00 AM because theyโre just night owls. So I walk in and thereโs leftover sushi from that night, and itโs starting to smell really bad on the table, and thereโs soy sauce spilled all over the table and the floor and stuff. And Iโm kind of like, โReally?โ So I put my suitcase down, roll up my sleeves, get the dish towel, and I clean up the table, I take the sushi out to the dumpster and Iโm still wearing my suit. And Iโm thinking to myself, โOkay, now this is a day.โ Six hours ago I was being served sushi and now I am cleaning it off the floor. This is the life of the CEO, of a founding CEO. This is exactly it. Iโm the plumber, I am the custodian, I am the everything.
Steve Goldbach: Well, thatโs a good place to cut in on how you take care of your people. One of the things that struck me when we got introduced was just the way you had your leadership style and your policies around who you hire. And I remember very specifically when I was introduced to you, I started looking at your website and there was a very clear no assholes policy on your website. What was your leadership approach to your people? You clearly said, โIโve got to take care of everybody,โ and were willing to literally mop up after them. Say a bit about your leadership style, maybe beyond the cleanup crew aspect of it.
Amy Chang: I would say, leadership style wise, it all kind of started with wanting to be very deliberate about how we hired, how we promoted, how we retained, and how we let people go if they werenโt a cultural fit. And we felt like the valuesโฆ And I donโt know if you remember the Netflix culture deck from way, way back, I think 13, 14 years ago, itโs still a fantastic deck in terms of giving overall guidance for founders before they sit down and start talking through values. Because what we did was, we had a good friend come facilitate, and the three of us as co-founders, wrote down separately what was most important to us. And then we came together and we stormed and formed around it and we debated a lot of the points, and we also debated the language of no assholes because we felt like, do we want profanity in our values? I donโt know that we want that in our values, but the reason-
Des Dearlove: I think even Netflix, I think they call it no jerks, donโt they?
Amy Chang: Yes, no jerks.
Des Dearlove: โฆ no jerks. Yeah, Iโve talked to Reed about that. Yeah.
Amy Chang: And we decided to say โNo Assholesโ because it was so memorable, and we wanted to repel as many people as we attracted, and we wanted to literally put it as our number one value because we wanted to communicate, we will fire for this. If it turns out you are an asshole, we will take you off the team. And there was one person who had a very critical skillset, but it became very clear that they violated rule number one within six weeks of us hiring them. And when I look back on it now, we had so needed this skillset, we compromised on that value. And we didnโt know that this person was totally going to violate rule number one, but there were clues as to their communication style and their values that we should have paid more attention to. And it became very clear within six weeks that this person was disrupting the culture of the company. And so I let them go, and thatโs the shortest tenured team member Iโve ever had. And it was my mistake for hiring him in the first place. But it was so clear to us that all of us had dealt with enough people who are all about themselves versus the team, or however you want to characterize the word asshole, their styles would bring other people down, et cetera, et cetera, that weโd worked with enough of these people in the 20 years of our careers that we just didnโt want to do it anymore. And it was important enough to us to make it our number one value. So I think as CEO, itโs all about creating an environment where your people can be their best selves and bring their whole selves to work. And that means understanding their hopes and dreams. It means understanding the environment they need to function well in. It means crafting development plans for them that let them have some stretch and let them take some risk while at the same time letting them shine in some of the areas theyโre best in. And the thing I found hardest was going from the startup where I so understood every single personโs capabilities at an intimate level to managing again, this very large team where thereโs just no functional way to do that. And that loss of intimacy, if you will, was hard for the first year in rejoining a Fortune 50.
Des Dearlove: So how do you do that? I mean, presumably then you have to rely on symbolic leadership more, gestures. I mean, everybodyโs watching you, but you canโt have a one-to-one relationship with everybody in the team, but everything you do is amplified and magnified. Will you consciously thinkโฆ Do you think about that? Amy Chang: Very much so. I think that is exactly what is in your mind when youโre first starting. So, Des, Iโll tell a 60 second context story around how I joined. So I was on the board of Cisco, and then Chuck [Robbins, ed.] decided he would buy our company and have me run most of our software platforms, our entire collaboration platform, and that we would integrate our technology into the stack to give it more intelligence, and so that was the genesis of how I came in. But Iโd been on the board, and there was this crazy weird set of rumors when I came in because the person who held the position prior to me left to go be a public company CEO, and you know the SEC filing ramifications of that. So one of the things was that the timing was very tight around the communication to the team. And we literally closed the acquisition paperwork and signed it at 4:00 AM that morning after some very in-depth negotiations for the 72 hours prior. So I think Iโd slept about five hours in that entire 72 hour period. And we basically stayed overnight in the Fenwick offices. It needed to be done before the announcement for him went out. And then that morning I had an all hands with the team of 6,000 and it was worldwide broadcast, so they werenโt all in a room, but weโll just say, my predecessor did not do the loveliest job introducing me to the organization and we will leave it at that, but it was pretty bad. So it left a lot of questions in the teamโs mind and they were wonderingโฆ Oh, I laugh because itโs so bad, you either laugh or you cry. So the CIO and I had been friends because of the board work that I had done. So he calls me on my way to do this world tour, because I felt like one of the things I have to do is get out in front of the teams and talk to them and meet them face to face. And Iโm just going to fly around the world and Iโm going to meet all my teams in town halls and Iโm going to spend hours with them listening to them and just understanding what the issues were. Because the other piece of context is this particular group had not shown any revenue growth in three years prior, while competitors for our products were growing in some cases a hundred percent year over year. So you know thereโs problems. And, by the way, we fixed those problems. We actually publiclyโฆ We had 24% year-over-year growth the fiscal year prior to me being able to retire. But we had some serious problems. So he calls me, and Iโm on my way, I think, to, at the time Norway, to go see our teams there. And he says, โAmy, I have to tell you something and I think itโs going to hurt your feelings, but I think itโs better if you hear it, especially from a friend.โ And I was like, โOkay, lay it on me. What is it?โ And he said, โThere are rumors swirling around that you are a henchwoman from the board thatโs come in to carve off this whole business and sell it. Thereโs also a second rumor that youโre a henchwoman from the board whoโs come in to cut one third of all the staff in this group, because itโs not at growth. Thereโs also rumorโฆโ And there were all these rumors and they all started with โhenchwoman from the boardโ and something bad. And that was what everybody thought I had come in there to do. And I kind of went, โWow. Okay, good to know that that is what is swirling around. Not sure where thatโs coming from, but good to know.โ So I called our team lead in each country, and I told him, โHey, I am going to need you to ask me some really hard questions. And Iโm going to need you to ask them to me in the most direct and harsh way possible. So I literally want you to ask me, โAre you a henchwoman from the board whoโs come here to cut a third of the team? Are you?โ And I need you to ask me right away at the very opening of the town hall so that itโll encourage other people to ask really hard questions too, because weโve got to get it all out on the table or else these rumors are going to continue to circulate and take up time and space and we donโt have any time to waste because weโre losing market share every single day. So letโs just get it out there.โ I mean, he paused on the phone, there was like, I donโt know, 12 seconds of very long silence. And he said, โAre you sure?โ And I said, โYeah, Iโm sure. I want you to ask me this.โ So we did this at the town hall and it actually turned everything. So the level of questions that people were allowed to ask I think really gave them a lot more confidence. And by the end of that first visit to all the European offices, there were people who came up and said, โOh, we didnโt know what to make of you after that introduction with you and your predecessor.โ And I will tell you, long story short, that whole all-hands meeting was supposed to be 40 minutes and my predecessor spent 25 minutes talking about his achievements and did not introduce me. And so I finally barged into the video and said, โDo you want to tell them who the random Asian lady is sitting next to you?โ At which point he couldnโt avoid, and actually he still didnโt introduce and said, โGo ahead.โ And that was his response to that introduction. And so I introduced myself, but itโs awkward because thereโs only so much you can really say in that kind of context. And I got the chance to tell them I was going to come and see them all at their offices and do a town hall, but there wasnโt much more time to do a lot more than that. So thatโs the foot we started off on. And then after that, given how transparent I think we were willing to be, and I helped the leadership team kind of see that that level of transparency was probably a good thing, then we got going from there and the team changed.
Des Dearlove: Yeah, and stories like that, they goโฆ Stories go around an organisation so fast, good or bad, but obviously bad tends to get even quicker. But a story like that where youโve been transparent and people have seen a different side that travels before you, I think, that travels ahead of you and it makes such a difference.
Amy Chang: I think it does. And I think if youโre not hiding and instead youโre trying to be as transparent as you can, and just saying, โI donโtโฆโ And people would ask, โWell, are you going to make changes? Are you going to replace your executive team,โ et cetera. And I would say, โI donโt know. I will answer you honestly, I donโt know, but I want to keep an open mind. And anyone whoโs doing a great job, I want to know about it. I want to support them and I want to learn from them. But if there are changes that need to be made, I will make them.โ
Steve Goldbach: To some extent, when youโre in that kind of a role, youโve got to know that every word that you are saying is getting parsed in some way. And maybe thatโs a good pivot to just talking generally. So weโve talked startup leader, weโve talked leader at a scaled organization, how do you think about board service generally? Because youโre on many different boards. So how do you think about the role of a board member as it relates to that same construct? Every question you ask is sort of causing lots of work in organizations to go and answer those questions, because Amy asked, we got to answer it because sheโs a board member. Or how do you think about driving change from the boardroom rather than in the leadership chair itself?
Amy Chang: That one was one of the biggest adjustments that Iโฆ So Informatica was my first board, and Sohaib Abbasi and Godfrey Sullivan and Chuck Robel were all on that board. They were phenomenal mentors. And one of the things that I think they did was help me understand the role of the board member and how itโs so different from the role of management. And I knew nothing about it because it was my first board and it happened to be a public board. And it was a huge adjustment to mentally reset and say, itโs not my job to fix this problem or tell them how to fix it, but it is my job to ask the โwhatโ. Itโs not my job to talk about the how, but it is my job to ask about the what and the why. And if I see something where it doesnโt seem to jive with where the market is going or what the reality of the situation is, I have an obligation to express that in a very constructive way and an obligation to ask about it. And so reframing that was, Iโd say bumpy for the first two-three board meetings. And then I got the hang of it. And I think that early experience with so many experienced board members who understood that distinction, because theyโd all been operators themselves, was very helpful, and they were willing to help me calibrate and understand. And then I took that into Splunk, because Godfrey Sullivan was also chairman of Splunk then and pulled me into the Splunk board, and then into Cisco and Procter, et cetera. And for everyone whoโs taking on a board for the first time, I think the most helpful thing you can do, and thereโs two most helpful things. One is meet everybody one-on-one if you can, before your first board meeting and just get to know them as humans. Because hereโs the thing is, often you will have differences of opinion in the boardroom because you have different lived experience and you come from different sectors and youโre supposed to bring different points of view, thatโs the point of having โฆ
Steve Goldbach: Thatโs the point, yeah.
Amy Chang: Yeah, thatโs the entire point. But it doesnโt need to be personal. It doesnโt ever need to be taken personally when you disagree. And the best way to ensure that is if youโve already had a conversation, one-on-one as humans before you ever have that disagreement. And I think that way people understand, โOh, okay, youโre just disagreeing with my point. You are not disagreeing with me as a whole person. Youโre just disagreeing with that point.โ And so that investment I found, especially as a new board member coming in for any boards that are more mature and have a lot of folks whoโve been there for a long time, youโll learn a ton in those conversations, and you create the foundation for those trusted relationships so that you can disagree and not have it become a federal case. So thatโs one. The second thing is in those one-on-one meetings, Iโm looking for someone with whom I have good chemistry because Iโd like to use them as a calibration source, if you will. So that the person with whom I probably have the most chemistry, and I know who will be direct with me, I say, โFor the first couple more meetings, can I debrief with you afterwards just to calibrate on where things stand and where I could be adjusting to this particular boardโs culture or to this particular company just a little better?โ Because every single board is composed of different humans, which creates a different type of feel and dynamic. And Iโve never had anyone say no. I mean, people are always very willing to help. And so then after the board meeting, Iโll literally do a call either that night or the next day and just ask, โHow did it go? Where was I miscalibrated? Would you say you think I should speak up more, speak up less?โ et cetera, et cetera. Whatโs the patterning for this board and how can I be better? And then they usually have very good suggestions. And then we do that two, three times, and then weโre off to the races and thereโs not a need to keep doing it after every board meeting. But then thereโs a line of communication open where somebody whoโs very experienced with that board will tell you, if ever, letโs say youโve stepped too much into management and youโre being a little bit kind of too overbearing, they might text me and tell me.
Des Dearlove: I mean, itโs almost like youโre looking for a cultural interpreter, somebody just in those early stages-
Amy Chang: Thatโs a great term!
Des Dearlove: Tell me-
Amy Chang: Yes.
Des Dearlove: Let me understand how this culture works so once Iโve got the cues, Iโll be able to pick them up for myself. No, thatโs really interesting. Thatโs really fascinating.
Amy Chang: Thatโs a great way of putting it, a cultural interpreter. Yes.
Des Dearlove: Yeah, we should all have one. I think when you come into an organisation, itโs a good thing to look for. Letโs talk a little bit more about management. Tell us a little bit about your management mantra.
Amy Chang: For my people or for myself as a leader, to make sure that Iโm doing my job?
Des Dearlove: For yourself, because I suspect this also touches on, right back to the beginning when you were feeling what you were at Google and you knew it was time to, what Whitney Johnson would say, is youโve kind of reach the top of your S curve and it was time to jump to another S curve and disrupt yourself. But yeah, I think it probably relates to that.
Amy Chang: It absolutely relates to that. Itโs basically to operate always in the yellow, not in the green where things are comfortable and things are kind of coasting and you know what to expect, not in the red where your hair is on fire all the time, but in the yellow where youโve got a mix, youโre just on the edge of uncomfortable. You donโt know on Monday morning when you wake up, everything that youโll need to know by Friday when you go to bed. There is something new you will need to learn that week, and you absolutely will have to stretch to try and learn it. Thatโs the zone that I love being in, and thatโs the zone where I do my best work and I support my teams best, I think. Des Dearlove: Just to build on that, how do you manage others, do you expect them to stay in the same yellow zone or how do youโฆ Because weโre starting to throw some kind of management ideas into this, but thereโs sort of some of Amy Edmondsonโs psychological safety, people have to trust to be in that space because we have a natural tendency to want to protect ourselves. But to stay constantly in the yellow, people have to feel some sense of safety and feel that they have the support of the leader.
Amy Chang: Yes. I think thatโs critical. So knowing your leader is going to have your back so that you can take some risk, in a large corporate environment, thatโs particularly critical. And so one of the things, this is, again, apologies for the profanity, Iโll say it in the non-profane way, a poop umbrella. The higher up you get, the more you are also the poop umbrella. So your people should be able to take plenty of risk and you spread and you umbrella them from the effect of mistakes. Tthose mistakes, youโll say, โOkay, that lands on me. My mistake, I did that. Sorry, wonโt do that again. This will not happen again. Sorry.โ And it costs me a minuscule amount, whereas for that person, it could be career ending if it was on their shoulders. So itโs kind of a permeable poop umbrella where sunshine should come through, but no poop should come through. I want my people to very much get credit for everythingโฆย Iโm sure thereโs a better way to put it, but any bad stuff, put that on me. Any good stuff, โThis is the person who did the work. This is the person who deserves the applause, shine the sunlight on them.โ And I think, particularly in a large corporate environment, people start to understand very quickly, โOh, sheโs going to shield me from everything she can so I can take a risk. And when I do something good, I am going to get the accolades for that.โ And it just reinforces this ability to take risks and the rewards for taking that risk. Steve Goldbach: And look, the benefit is, and just knowing you, itโs like this is why people want to work for you, and this is why people will want to be in your orbit, Amy, itโs just you have this amazing way of energizing people which is infectious. Given the last time we chatted, we chatted a lot about health and longevity. One of the things that I wanted to ask you, and maybe this is a good one, Des, to end on, but just how do you stay in the yellow as a person who is under lots of different stresses? What do you do to take care of yourself and make sure that the stresses of life are not impacting your ability to be present with your teams and to behave in the way that you aspire to? Amy Chang: So Steve, you and I talked about this in depth, but I had no idea how important cardio based exercise was, where your heart rate gets up to, letโs say 200 minus your age for a good amount of time every week. And I didnโt know how important that was to your brain as well as your heart. I joined the UCSF hospital board as my giveback board a few years ago. And in getting to know some of the neuroscientists and neurosurgeons there and understanding more about their practices around the brain, that was one that was new to me. And ever since I have begun doing cardio exercise, I literally can feel the difference in my corporeal being and in the clarity of thought as well. And so thatโs one thing that Iโve reincorporated that Iโve lost for almost 20 years. Because what I used to do was force people, if they had a one-on-one and no slides, to walk with me, because it was good for them, good for me. And people would say things to you when you werenโt facing each other across the table, and instead you were walking side by side that I found they would not say to you when you were looking at them, that they would be more open and vulnerable about certain issues that they were having. So I just started doing all my one-on-ones walking, and I could get between six to 10 miles a day just doing one-on-ones walking. And I thought, โOh, Iโm getting plenty of exercise. Iโm all good.โ But I didnโt understand how that elevated heart rate sweat cardio would make such a huge health difference. So I encourage everybody whoโs not sweating every week, doing some kind of real cardiovascular exercise, to consider it because it has extreme benefits for the brain as well as the heart. And for me, I was like, โOkay, my heart, I do care, but my brain I really care about because if that goes we are in deep, deep trouble. So I am going to take good care of all of this.โ So yes, thatโs what got me. The other thing was sleep. I probably survived on five-six hours of sleep for 20 some odd years. I mean, I really did. And I think I burned the candle pretty heavily at both ends and kind of just thought, โOkay, I just need my body to cooperate with what it needs to be doing today.โ There wasnโt much care involved, it was more, just cooperate, just do what I need you to do. And now that Iโm kind of semi-retired, letโs say โ Iโm doing a portfolio of things, but I donโt have an operating role with the same intensity that I used to โ I sleep seven, eight hours a day, sometimes nine and Iโm just like, โWow. I see the difference in clarity of thinking and I see the difference in efficiency of operation. I wish I wouldโve known this years ago.โ And yes, I do silly things like, this is going to sound really funny, but I have a pillow now that I stuff into a bag and take with me as a carry-on because I sleep a lot better with this pillow and I love it. So Iโm that weirdo now who zips up their travel pillow into a bag and takes it with her. And everybody has their weird things. And I would say as long as theyโre not harming anyone, take what you want on your trips with you so that you can sleep better, because that quality of sleep is really important. I used to just pack very lightly and be like, โIโll survive,โ which you will survive, but quality of sleep is really important. After reading that Matthew Walker book, Bill Gates recommended this book, after I read it, I was like, โOkay, that is eye-opening.โ And began to try and guard my quality of sleep more. And Steve, I know that this is an area of deep study that youโve done across the board on health, and Iโve learned so much from Steve too on this front. So heโs been very, very eye-opening and educational on this. So Iโm working on all these things.
Steve Goldbach: I got lots to work on and Iโm trying not to be a pusher about it, but when it works-
Amy Chang: Well, Iโm pulling. Weโre all pulling.
Des Dearlove: Yeah, donโt underestimate the endorphins as well that you get from cardio exercise, theyโre little happy bubbles.
Amy Chang: Totally.
Des Dearlove: And probably youโll sleep better because youโre exercising more as well. There is a virtuous cycle here.
Amy Chang: Yeah. And Iโve stopped drinking in the evenings. Now if thereโs going to be any kind of wine drinking, itโs weekend day drinking.
Des Dearlove: Oh, thatโs impressive. Well, you know what, really, weโve run out of time. I thought this would happen. We could probably talk for a lot longer, but we are out of time. So a huge thanks to our guest, Amy Chang, and to you for listening. This is The Provocateurs Podcast and weโve been Des Dearlove and Steve Goldbach. Please do join us again soon for another episode of Provocateurs.
Steve Goldbach: Great to see you, Des. And I am so excited for our guest today who is my dear friend, Amy Chang. I am honored to call her a friend, in addition to a great colleague. Amy serves on the board of directors for the Walt Disney Company and Procter & Gamble, and she served on many other boards including Cisco, Splunk, Marqeta and Informatica to name a few. I met Amy when she was running Accompany, which was an artificial intelligence, machine learning-based relationship intelligence platform serving Fortune 500 companies and serving Deloitte, which is how I met her. Accompany was acquired by Cisco for $270 million, and post acquisition, Amy was leading Ciscoโs multi-billion dollar, 6,000 person collaboration business. So Amy brings tons of different kinds of leadership experience, whether itโs in the boardroom or leading a startup or leading a scaled practice in a Fortune 500 company. Sheโs also spent time previously at Google where she led Google Analytics, she was at eBay, and she was at McKinsey, and she is an engineer by training and started her career in hardware with Intel, AMD, and Motorola. So this is super cool, Amy. Iโm so excited to speak to you. Just for transparency, I got a chance to work directly with Amy while she was at Accompany and I found her to be one of the most amazing leaders. I think she is at the apex of nice people and brilliant people, and so there might be people who might be more brilliant than Amy, but theyโre not as nice as Amy. And there might be people who are nicer than Amy, but theyโre not more brilliant than Amy. So she is at this wonderful apex. Amy, why donโt you just start byโฆ Tell us a little bit about your backstory. Were you always an entrepreneur in waiting? What led you to start Accompany?
Amy Chang: And Steve, thank you for the lovely introduction. I donโt know that Iโd called myself an entrepreneur in waiting because I didnโt knowโฆ I was so scared to leave Google and the womb of Google, the soft comfy cocoon of Google and to go start something. And it was actually one of the scariest things I ever did in my career, and I didnโt know if I could do it. So I would love to have characterized myself as an entrepreneur in waiting, but it didnโt even occur to me until we reached right around 86% market share with Google Analytics, and Iโd started with the team when it was less than 1% market share. We bought this tiny company and then from its foundations we made Google Analytics. And we were a new entrant into the market and we werenโt anybody yet in that analytics market, and then it started to build and build and we doubled every six months and it was an entire almost eight year journey. And at the end of it, I was kind of like, well, whatโs the difference between 92% and 86% market share? Basically nothing, right? And if you know what next month, next quarter, next year is going to look like, I personally cannot live that way. That to me is anathema and I just canโt function that way. That much predictability kind of makes me want to poke my eye out. So I decided, okay, I got to do something different. And at first it was, well, what different kind of things are there at Google because letโs stay in Google. But then it became very clear to me that the massive distribution engine that is Google means anything you launch, even if itโs not fantastic, will have a few million people try it out. You havenโt earned the right to have those few million people try it out, you just kind of have this giant engine. And I just wondered, well, what would it be like to do it outside of Google without that bolstering and have to be on your own in the marketplace, putting your idea out there your way, and thatโs the genesis.
Des Dearlove: So what actually provoked you then to leave the cocoon? Which came first, the urge to do something different or the idea for the business?
Amy Chang: I love that question, Des. The urge to do something different was sitting there for the entire last year of my tenure there because afterโฆ We suddenly hit this 86% mark, and it was kind of a wake-up call because we hadnโt done the market share look in six months, and it had hit a certain inflection point and it was just climbing a hockey stick. And I donโt know, we had a launch, a big mobile analytics launch, and I expected to feel the high from it, and I expected that to last for, I donโt know, at least a few days, a week maybe, and to be so excited about it. And right after all the launch flurry of activity died down, it didnโt feel right. I felt let down. I felt like there was something missing. I felt like, โThatโs it?โ Do you know what I mean? And it was this wake up call and I kind of went, โOh, thereโs something wrong here if thatโs how I feel about it,โ because the team worked so hard on this, and itโs kind of a big deal in the industry. And yet my reaction to it is a little bit, โMeh,โ thereโs something wrong with how Iโm currently spending my time, was the wake-up call. And my boss at the time was Susan Wojcicki, whoโs fantastic, and she encouraged meโฆ So I will say I struggled with whether or not to even tell her I was having these feelings for months. And I think the 20th time I woke my poor spouse up, who at 2:00 AM was slumbering nicely next to me โ and Steve knows Ryan well, heโs the calmest, coolest human โ but the 20th time you wake him up at 2:00 AM, heโs going to be a little cranky. So I kind of woke him up and I was like, โRyan, Ryan, do you really think I can leave Google? Do you think itโs crazy?โ Because I have a wonderful first generation immigrant Chinese mother who would articulate every fear I had about leaving out loud. Sheโd be, โWhoโs going to fund you? Whoโs going to follow you? Do you even know how to sell things? Youโve never sold anything. I donโt think anybodyโs going to come with you to do this. I think youโre crazy to want to leave Google.โ So every one of my deepest, darkest fears, she would articulate out loud to me on an almost daily basis. So poor Ryan is woken up for the 20th time and he finally says, โI think youโve already made your decision. And whatโs happening now is youโre a little bit afraid, but itโs okay. Weโre not going to starve. Weโve got a roof over our heads. Just go in, let Susan know and itโll be fine.โ So that morning I typed up my resignation letter and I gave it to her. And she didnโt accept it. She said, โWell, okay, can you take a sabbatical? Can you look at other things inside of the company,โ et cetera. And she was kind enough to provide me with that chance. And as I was looking those thoughts around, โWell, what would it be like to test all of this against the open market,โ it started to become more prevalent. Steve Goldbach: What then led you to discover the thing that led to the idea of Accompany? One of the things we love to talk about is what was your insight? What was your insight about your customer that said, โIโve got something thatโs better than what the market currently has.โ
Amy Chang: It was pain. So Google Analytics had hit the point where we needed to do some enterprise account selling and the way Google worksโฆ So we went into product review with Larry [Page, ed.] and Sergey [Brin, ed.] and I outlined this entire enterprise plan where weโd have customer care people, weโd have enterprise salesโฆ The whole normal machinery of selling to a big company like an Intel. And Sergeyโs point was, โOkay, but I want to know that thereโs actually a market here for an enterprise version of this. So why donโt you go sell the first 10 yourself and then come back to us. And once youโve sold the first 10, then weโll consider putting some sales resources on it.โ Because at the time, you have to remember each Google salesperson on average pulled in six million dollars a head. So thatโs a high bar to compete with as any new product, because on the ad sales side, they were so efficient. So I went, โOkay, no problem. I literally serve 86% of the web. I think I can find 10 enterprise customers. Itโs not going to be that hard.โ So me and my arrogance went away and said, โOkay, Iโll be back in a few months.โ Or actually, I said, โIโll be back in a quarter.โ So long story short, enterprise selling is harder than I thought. And I was in the room and it was a Monday and this big piece of news had come out about this particular potential client that we were in the room with, and there were 19 of them in the room. So I didnโt even know everybodyโs name and I didnโt have profiles or anything on them because at this time Iโm running all of Google Analytics, but Iโm also trying to sell myself, and itโs not as if we know what weโre doing right, on the side. So I wasnโt pre-prepped enough, and theyโd had a layoff that Friday that I didnโt read about and that I didnโt know about, and it was a substantial restructuring for this potential client. And I opened my mouth and I put my foot in it, I put my entire leg in it, and it was terrible. And when somebody from the client pointed out that they just had a restructuring on Friday, I kind of wished the earth would open up and swallow me. When you get so embarrassed, you feel the blood creep from your neck all the way up to your hairline and you could just feel your face really hot, thatโsโฆ And that was the fourth time that had happened in this whole enterprise sales process. Because when you walk into that room, you better know everything thatโs going on with that potential client. You better know everybody at the table. And itโs your responsibility as the lead salesperson to know all of that. And I was so frustrated, and I left that meeting and Iโm sitting there thinking, my calendar is my calendar. The names and the company for sure are in my calendar, why is there not some kind of machine learning system?โ Because we hadnโt had generative AI come out at that point. why isnโt there some algorithm or ML system that can surface everything thatโs relevant for me to know directly to me? Why can it not just be served up to me right before the meeting or the night before the meeting? Everything exists and itโs already there to do this, and yet nobodyโs done this, why? And wouldnโt every single salesperson on earth benefit from knowing who theyโre walking into the room with to try to sell, for that matter, every marketing person whoโs trying to do any kind of real targeting. So I just was very frustrated, and the experience stuck with me. And so then I started to do a little bit of homework and research in terms of customer interviews with people. And I think my co-founder and I at the time, and heโs my dearest friend from Google, heโs our technical co-founder. So he and I sat together and did 50 customer interviews, just kind of informal. And every single person had this experience before and every single person thought this was a problem that they would pay to fix, and that was the genesis of the idea.
Des Dearlove: So what fascinates me too is to go from a big scale organisation like Google and some of the other organisations youโve worked for to a startup, itโs so different. I mean, how did you find that transition, that journey? Because the resources just donโt exist, theyโre not there, you have to make it up as you go along.
Amy Chang: I have to say it was a huge adjustment at first, losing the massive distribution engine and just having that stripped from you, as a product person, all of a sudden you put something out and itโs crickets. Nobody cares, nobody cares. And you have to build up the entire brand. You have to build up the story. You have to communicate it. It was such fantastic new learning, and really a kind of very dense unlearning, and the unlearning is more painful. The learning is fun, the unlearning is a little painful. And a lot of the unlearning was learning to live without resources. So, I mean, at Google, they have an entire recruiting engine. So letโs say you have these open heads in design, or whatever, theyโre sending you candidates. And yes, you still have to interview the candidates, but you donโt source them, you donโt have to reference check them, you donโt have to do any of the legwork before theyโre served up to you on a silver platter for your consideration. Thereโs all this machinery in the background. And you want to talk about that. I mean, depending on Google infrastructure, to do everything you needed to do is a beautiful thing. And all of a sudden youโre out and youโre learning AWS, at the time, because Google Cloud wasnโt a force then. So youโre learning AWS and then youโre finding out, โOh, it doesnโt do this. Oh, it doesnโt do that. Oh, it doesnโt do this other thing. Damn it, we have to do that?โ And so a lot of that was painful at first. Des, I remember this time, I was at the board meeting, and they treat you very nicely there. They take very good care of you. And then I got off the plane, Iโm still in my suit, I still had my suitcase with me, but I was dressed in my suit and I came in through the door, and it was probably 9:00 PM that night. And we used to work till almost midnight most nights on weeknights. And the office was still buzzing and hard at work, because a lot of our engineers might not get in till 10 or 11:00 AM because theyโre just night owls. So I walk in and thereโs leftover sushi from that night, and itโs starting to smell really bad on the table, and thereโs soy sauce spilled all over the table and the floor and stuff. And Iโm kind of like, โReally?โ So I put my suitcase down, roll up my sleeves, get the dish towel, and I clean up the table, I take the sushi out to the dumpster and Iโm still wearing my suit. And Iโm thinking to myself, โOkay, now this is a day.โ Six hours ago I was being served sushi and now I am cleaning it off the floor. This is the life of the CEO, of a founding CEO. This is exactly it. Iโm the plumber, I am the custodian, I am the everything.
Steve Goldbach: Well, thatโs a good place to cut in on how you take care of your people. One of the things that struck me when we got introduced was just the way you had your leadership style and your policies around who you hire. And I remember very specifically when I was introduced to you, I started looking at your website and there was a very clear no assholes policy on your website. What was your leadership approach to your people? You clearly said, โIโve got to take care of everybody,โ and were willing to literally mop up after them. Say a bit about your leadership style, maybe beyond the cleanup crew aspect of it.
Amy Chang: I would say, leadership style wise, it all kind of started with wanting to be very deliberate about how we hired, how we promoted, how we retained, and how we let people go if they werenโt a cultural fit. And we felt like the valuesโฆ And I donโt know if you remember the Netflix culture deck from way, way back, I think 13, 14 years ago, itโs still a fantastic deck in terms of giving overall guidance for founders before they sit down and start talking through values. Because what we did was, we had a good friend come facilitate, and the three of us as co-founders, wrote down separately what was most important to us. And then we came together and we stormed and formed around it and we debated a lot of the points, and we also debated the language of no assholes because we felt like, do we want profanity in our values? I donโt know that we want that in our values, but the reason-
Des Dearlove: I think even Netflix, I think they call it no jerks, donโt they?
Amy Chang: Yes, no jerks.
Des Dearlove: โฆ no jerks. Yeah, Iโve talked to Reed about that. Yeah.
Amy Chang: And we decided to say โNo Assholesโ because it was so memorable, and we wanted to repel as many people as we attracted, and we wanted to literally put it as our number one value because we wanted to communicate, we will fire for this. If it turns out you are an asshole, we will take you off the team. And there was one person who had a very critical skillset, but it became very clear that they violated rule number one within six weeks of us hiring them. And when I look back on it now, we had so needed this skillset, we compromised on that value. And we didnโt know that this person was totally going to violate rule number one, but there were clues as to their communication style and their values that we should have paid more attention to. And it became very clear within six weeks that this person was disrupting the culture of the company. And so I let them go, and thatโs the shortest tenured team member Iโve ever had. And it was my mistake for hiring him in the first place. But it was so clear to us that all of us had dealt with enough people who are all about themselves versus the team, or however you want to characterize the word asshole, their styles would bring other people down, et cetera, et cetera, that weโd worked with enough of these people in the 20 years of our careers that we just didnโt want to do it anymore. And it was important enough to us to make it our number one value. So I think as CEO, itโs all about creating an environment where your people can be their best selves and bring their whole selves to work. And that means understanding their hopes and dreams. It means understanding the environment they need to function well in. It means crafting development plans for them that let them have some stretch and let them take some risk while at the same time letting them shine in some of the areas theyโre best in. And the thing I found hardest was going from the startup where I so understood every single personโs capabilities at an intimate level to managing again, this very large team where thereโs just no functional way to do that. And that loss of intimacy, if you will, was hard for the first year in rejoining a Fortune 50.
Des Dearlove: So how do you do that? I mean, presumably then you have to rely on symbolic leadership more, gestures. I mean, everybodyโs watching you, but you canโt have a one-to-one relationship with everybody in the team, but everything you do is amplified and magnified. Will you consciously thinkโฆ Do you think about that? Amy Chang: Very much so. I think that is exactly what is in your mind when youโre first starting. So, Des, Iโll tell a 60 second context story around how I joined. So I was on the board of Cisco, and then Chuck [Robbins, ed.] decided he would buy our company and have me run most of our software platforms, our entire collaboration platform, and that we would integrate our technology into the stack to give it more intelligence, and so that was the genesis of how I came in. But Iโd been on the board, and there was this crazy weird set of rumors when I came in because the person who held the position prior to me left to go be a public company CEO, and you know the SEC filing ramifications of that. So one of the things was that the timing was very tight around the communication to the team. And we literally closed the acquisition paperwork and signed it at 4:00 AM that morning after some very in-depth negotiations for the 72 hours prior. So I think Iโd slept about five hours in that entire 72 hour period. And we basically stayed overnight in the Fenwick offices. It needed to be done before the announcement for him went out. And then that morning I had an all hands with the team of 6,000 and it was worldwide broadcast, so they werenโt all in a room, but weโll just say, my predecessor did not do the loveliest job introducing me to the organization and we will leave it at that, but it was pretty bad. So it left a lot of questions in the teamโs mind and they were wonderingโฆ Oh, I laugh because itโs so bad, you either laugh or you cry. So the CIO and I had been friends because of the board work that I had done. So he calls me on my way to do this world tour, because I felt like one of the things I have to do is get out in front of the teams and talk to them and meet them face to face. And Iโm just going to fly around the world and Iโm going to meet all my teams in town halls and Iโm going to spend hours with them listening to them and just understanding what the issues were. Because the other piece of context is this particular group had not shown any revenue growth in three years prior, while competitors for our products were growing in some cases a hundred percent year over year. So you know thereโs problems. And, by the way, we fixed those problems. We actually publiclyโฆ We had 24% year-over-year growth the fiscal year prior to me being able to retire. But we had some serious problems. So he calls me, and Iโm on my way, I think, to, at the time Norway, to go see our teams there. And he says, โAmy, I have to tell you something and I think itโs going to hurt your feelings, but I think itโs better if you hear it, especially from a friend.โ And I was like, โOkay, lay it on me. What is it?โ And he said, โThere are rumors swirling around that you are a henchwoman from the board thatโs come in to carve off this whole business and sell it. Thereโs also a second rumor that youโre a henchwoman from the board whoโs come in to cut one third of all the staff in this group, because itโs not at growth. Thereโs also rumorโฆโ And there were all these rumors and they all started with โhenchwoman from the boardโ and something bad. And that was what everybody thought I had come in there to do. And I kind of went, โWow. Okay, good to know that that is what is swirling around. Not sure where thatโs coming from, but good to know.โ So I called our team lead in each country, and I told him, โHey, I am going to need you to ask me some really hard questions. And Iโm going to need you to ask them to me in the most direct and harsh way possible. So I literally want you to ask me, โAre you a henchwoman from the board whoโs come here to cut a third of the team? Are you?โ And I need you to ask me right away at the very opening of the town hall so that itโll encourage other people to ask really hard questions too, because weโve got to get it all out on the table or else these rumors are going to continue to circulate and take up time and space and we donโt have any time to waste because weโre losing market share every single day. So letโs just get it out there.โ I mean, he paused on the phone, there was like, I donโt know, 12 seconds of very long silence. And he said, โAre you sure?โ And I said, โYeah, Iโm sure. I want you to ask me this.โ So we did this at the town hall and it actually turned everything. So the level of questions that people were allowed to ask I think really gave them a lot more confidence. And by the end of that first visit to all the European offices, there were people who came up and said, โOh, we didnโt know what to make of you after that introduction with you and your predecessor.โ And I will tell you, long story short, that whole all-hands meeting was supposed to be 40 minutes and my predecessor spent 25 minutes talking about his achievements and did not introduce me. And so I finally barged into the video and said, โDo you want to tell them who the random Asian lady is sitting next to you?โ At which point he couldnโt avoid, and actually he still didnโt introduce and said, โGo ahead.โ And that was his response to that introduction. And so I introduced myself, but itโs awkward because thereโs only so much you can really say in that kind of context. And I got the chance to tell them I was going to come and see them all at their offices and do a town hall, but there wasnโt much more time to do a lot more than that. So thatโs the foot we started off on. And then after that, given how transparent I think we were willing to be, and I helped the leadership team kind of see that that level of transparency was probably a good thing, then we got going from there and the team changed.
Des Dearlove: Yeah, and stories like that, they goโฆ Stories go around an organisation so fast, good or bad, but obviously bad tends to get even quicker. But a story like that where youโve been transparent and people have seen a different side that travels before you, I think, that travels ahead of you and it makes such a difference.
Amy Chang: I think it does. And I think if youโre not hiding and instead youโre trying to be as transparent as you can, and just saying, โI donโtโฆโ And people would ask, โWell, are you going to make changes? Are you going to replace your executive team,โ et cetera. And I would say, โI donโt know. I will answer you honestly, I donโt know, but I want to keep an open mind. And anyone whoโs doing a great job, I want to know about it. I want to support them and I want to learn from them. But if there are changes that need to be made, I will make them.โ
Steve Goldbach: To some extent, when youโre in that kind of a role, youโve got to know that every word that you are saying is getting parsed in some way. And maybe thatโs a good pivot to just talking generally. So weโve talked startup leader, weโve talked leader at a scaled organization, how do you think about board service generally? Because youโre on many different boards. So how do you think about the role of a board member as it relates to that same construct? Every question you ask is sort of causing lots of work in organizations to go and answer those questions, because Amy asked, we got to answer it because sheโs a board member. Or how do you think about driving change from the boardroom rather than in the leadership chair itself?
Amy Chang: That one was one of the biggest adjustments that Iโฆ So Informatica was my first board, and Sohaib Abbasi and Godfrey Sullivan and Chuck Robel were all on that board. They were phenomenal mentors. And one of the things that I think they did was help me understand the role of the board member and how itโs so different from the role of management. And I knew nothing about it because it was my first board and it happened to be a public board. And it was a huge adjustment to mentally reset and say, itโs not my job to fix this problem or tell them how to fix it, but it is my job to ask the โwhatโ. Itโs not my job to talk about the how, but it is my job to ask about the what and the why. And if I see something where it doesnโt seem to jive with where the market is going or what the reality of the situation is, I have an obligation to express that in a very constructive way and an obligation to ask about it. And so reframing that was, Iโd say bumpy for the first two-three board meetings. And then I got the hang of it. And I think that early experience with so many experienced board members who understood that distinction, because theyโd all been operators themselves, was very helpful, and they were willing to help me calibrate and understand. And then I took that into Splunk, because Godfrey Sullivan was also chairman of Splunk then and pulled me into the Splunk board, and then into Cisco and Procter, et cetera. And for everyone whoโs taking on a board for the first time, I think the most helpful thing you can do, and thereโs two most helpful things. One is meet everybody one-on-one if you can, before your first board meeting and just get to know them as humans. Because hereโs the thing is, often you will have differences of opinion in the boardroom because you have different lived experience and you come from different sectors and youโre supposed to bring different points of view, thatโs the point of having โฆ
Steve Goldbach: Thatโs the point, yeah.
Amy Chang: Yeah, thatโs the entire point. But it doesnโt need to be personal. It doesnโt ever need to be taken personally when you disagree. And the best way to ensure that is if youโve already had a conversation, one-on-one as humans before you ever have that disagreement. And I think that way people understand, โOh, okay, youโre just disagreeing with my point. You are not disagreeing with me as a whole person. Youโre just disagreeing with that point.โ And so that investment I found, especially as a new board member coming in for any boards that are more mature and have a lot of folks whoโve been there for a long time, youโll learn a ton in those conversations, and you create the foundation for those trusted relationships so that you can disagree and not have it become a federal case. So thatโs one. The second thing is in those one-on-one meetings, Iโm looking for someone with whom I have good chemistry because Iโd like to use them as a calibration source, if you will. So that the person with whom I probably have the most chemistry, and I know who will be direct with me, I say, โFor the first couple more meetings, can I debrief with you afterwards just to calibrate on where things stand and where I could be adjusting to this particular boardโs culture or to this particular company just a little better?โ Because every single board is composed of different humans, which creates a different type of feel and dynamic. And Iโve never had anyone say no. I mean, people are always very willing to help. And so then after the board meeting, Iโll literally do a call either that night or the next day and just ask, โHow did it go? Where was I miscalibrated? Would you say you think I should speak up more, speak up less?โ et cetera, et cetera. Whatโs the patterning for this board and how can I be better? And then they usually have very good suggestions. And then we do that two, three times, and then weโre off to the races and thereโs not a need to keep doing it after every board meeting. But then thereโs a line of communication open where somebody whoโs very experienced with that board will tell you, if ever, letโs say youโve stepped too much into management and youโre being a little bit kind of too overbearing, they might text me and tell me.
Des Dearlove: I mean, itโs almost like youโre looking for a cultural interpreter, somebody just in those early stages-
Amy Chang: Thatโs a great term!
Des Dearlove: Tell me-
Amy Chang: Yes.
Des Dearlove: Let me understand how this culture works so once Iโve got the cues, Iโll be able to pick them up for myself. No, thatโs really interesting. Thatโs really fascinating.
Amy Chang: Thatโs a great way of putting it, a cultural interpreter. Yes.
Des Dearlove: Yeah, we should all have one. I think when you come into an organisation, itโs a good thing to look for. Letโs talk a little bit more about management. Tell us a little bit about your management mantra.
Amy Chang: For my people or for myself as a leader, to make sure that Iโm doing my job?
Des Dearlove: For yourself, because I suspect this also touches on, right back to the beginning when you were feeling what you were at Google and you knew it was time to, what Whitney Johnson would say, is youโve kind of reach the top of your S curve and it was time to jump to another S curve and disrupt yourself. But yeah, I think it probably relates to that.
Amy Chang: It absolutely relates to that. Itโs basically to operate always in the yellow, not in the green where things are comfortable and things are kind of coasting and you know what to expect, not in the red where your hair is on fire all the time, but in the yellow where youโve got a mix, youโre just on the edge of uncomfortable. You donโt know on Monday morning when you wake up, everything that youโll need to know by Friday when you go to bed. There is something new you will need to learn that week, and you absolutely will have to stretch to try and learn it. Thatโs the zone that I love being in, and thatโs the zone where I do my best work and I support my teams best, I think. Des Dearlove: Just to build on that, how do you manage others, do you expect them to stay in the same yellow zone or how do youโฆ Because weโre starting to throw some kind of management ideas into this, but thereโs sort of some of Amy Edmondsonโs psychological safety, people have to trust to be in that space because we have a natural tendency to want to protect ourselves. But to stay constantly in the yellow, people have to feel some sense of safety and feel that they have the support of the leader.
Amy Chang: Yes. I think thatโs critical. So knowing your leader is going to have your back so that you can take some risk, in a large corporate environment, thatโs particularly critical. And so one of the things, this is, again, apologies for the profanity, Iโll say it in the non-profane way, a poop umbrella. The higher up you get, the more you are also the poop umbrella. So your people should be able to take plenty of risk and you spread and you umbrella them from the effect of mistakes. Tthose mistakes, youโll say, โOkay, that lands on me. My mistake, I did that. Sorry, wonโt do that again. This will not happen again. Sorry.โ And it costs me a minuscule amount, whereas for that person, it could be career ending if it was on their shoulders. So itโs kind of a permeable poop umbrella where sunshine should come through, but no poop should come through. I want my people to very much get credit for everythingโฆย Iโm sure thereโs a better way to put it, but any bad stuff, put that on me. Any good stuff, โThis is the person who did the work. This is the person who deserves the applause, shine the sunlight on them.โ And I think, particularly in a large corporate environment, people start to understand very quickly, โOh, sheโs going to shield me from everything she can so I can take a risk. And when I do something good, I am going to get the accolades for that.โ And it just reinforces this ability to take risks and the rewards for taking that risk. Steve Goldbach: And look, the benefit is, and just knowing you, itโs like this is why people want to work for you, and this is why people will want to be in your orbit, Amy, itโs just you have this amazing way of energizing people which is infectious. Given the last time we chatted, we chatted a lot about health and longevity. One of the things that I wanted to ask you, and maybe this is a good one, Des, to end on, but just how do you stay in the yellow as a person who is under lots of different stresses? What do you do to take care of yourself and make sure that the stresses of life are not impacting your ability to be present with your teams and to behave in the way that you aspire to? Amy Chang: So Steve, you and I talked about this in depth, but I had no idea how important cardio based exercise was, where your heart rate gets up to, letโs say 200 minus your age for a good amount of time every week. And I didnโt know how important that was to your brain as well as your heart. I joined the UCSF hospital board as my giveback board a few years ago. And in getting to know some of the neuroscientists and neurosurgeons there and understanding more about their practices around the brain, that was one that was new to me. And ever since I have begun doing cardio exercise, I literally can feel the difference in my corporeal being and in the clarity of thought as well. And so thatโs one thing that Iโve reincorporated that Iโve lost for almost 20 years. Because what I used to do was force people, if they had a one-on-one and no slides, to walk with me, because it was good for them, good for me. And people would say things to you when you werenโt facing each other across the table, and instead you were walking side by side that I found they would not say to you when you were looking at them, that they would be more open and vulnerable about certain issues that they were having. So I just started doing all my one-on-ones walking, and I could get between six to 10 miles a day just doing one-on-ones walking. And I thought, โOh, Iโm getting plenty of exercise. Iโm all good.โ But I didnโt understand how that elevated heart rate sweat cardio would make such a huge health difference. So I encourage everybody whoโs not sweating every week, doing some kind of real cardiovascular exercise, to consider it because it has extreme benefits for the brain as well as the heart. And for me, I was like, โOkay, my heart, I do care, but my brain I really care about because if that goes we are in deep, deep trouble. So I am going to take good care of all of this.โ So yes, thatโs what got me. The other thing was sleep. I probably survived on five-six hours of sleep for 20 some odd years. I mean, I really did. And I think I burned the candle pretty heavily at both ends and kind of just thought, โOkay, I just need my body to cooperate with what it needs to be doing today.โ There wasnโt much care involved, it was more, just cooperate, just do what I need you to do. And now that Iโm kind of semi-retired, letโs say โ Iโm doing a portfolio of things, but I donโt have an operating role with the same intensity that I used to โ I sleep seven, eight hours a day, sometimes nine and Iโm just like, โWow. I see the difference in clarity of thinking and I see the difference in efficiency of operation. I wish I wouldโve known this years ago.โ And yes, I do silly things like, this is going to sound really funny, but I have a pillow now that I stuff into a bag and take with me as a carry-on because I sleep a lot better with this pillow and I love it. So Iโm that weirdo now who zips up their travel pillow into a bag and takes it with her. And everybody has their weird things. And I would say as long as theyโre not harming anyone, take what you want on your trips with you so that you can sleep better, because that quality of sleep is really important. I used to just pack very lightly and be like, โIโll survive,โ which you will survive, but quality of sleep is really important. After reading that Matthew Walker book, Bill Gates recommended this book, after I read it, I was like, โOkay, that is eye-opening.โ And began to try and guard my quality of sleep more. And Steve, I know that this is an area of deep study that youโve done across the board on health, and Iโve learned so much from Steve too on this front. So heโs been very, very eye-opening and educational on this. So Iโm working on all these things.
Steve Goldbach: I got lots to work on and Iโm trying not to be a pusher about it, but when it works-
Amy Chang: Well, Iโm pulling. Weโre all pulling.
Des Dearlove: Yeah, donโt underestimate the endorphins as well that you get from cardio exercise, theyโre little happy bubbles.
Amy Chang: Totally.
Des Dearlove: And probably youโll sleep better because youโre exercising more as well. There is a virtuous cycle here.
Amy Chang: Yeah. And Iโve stopped drinking in the evenings. Now if thereโs going to be any kind of wine drinking, itโs weekend day drinking.
Des Dearlove: Oh, thatโs impressive. Well, you know what, really, weโve run out of time. I thought this would happen. We could probably talk for a lot longer, but we are out of time. So a huge thanks to our guest, Amy Chang, and to you for listening. This is The Provocateurs Podcast and weโve been Des Dearlove and Steve Goldbach. Please do join us again soon for another episode of Provocateurs.
This podcast is part of an ongoing series of interviews with executives. The executivesโ participation in this podcast are solely for educational purposes based on their knowledge of the subject and the views expressed by them are solely their own. This podcast should not be deemed or construed to be for the purpose of soliciting business for any of the companies mentioned, nor does Deloitte advocate or endorse the services or products provided by these companies.
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